When you became the de-facto second in command to General Sani Abacha, how did you feel?
I felt completely fulfilled and satisfied that I reached the peak of my profession which was when I became the Chief of Defence Staff. That was the highest anybody could reach in the Armed Forces, be it Army, Air force or Navy. The post of the Chief of General Staff was a political office. So naturally, I was happy and suffice to say that it formed part of my achievements in life.
So, because of ambition to be number one, you decided to plan a coup?
If you say I planned a coup, I will order your arrest. Everybody, including the news media, knew and they all described it as a phantom coup. I don’t want to go into details of all that, but I thank God that even though men had their judgement, that of God was supreme. The Oputa panel looked into every detail of the allegation concerning the alleged coup. I know many people watched the procedure, but there was a report, which I advocated that should be published and implemented. It’s there on the internet for everyone to see.
In the video of the Oputa panel proceedings with General Bamaiyi and
Major Al Mustapha present, you were insisting that you didn’t plan any
coup and anybody could have believed you, but your colleague, General
Adisa, insisted that you planned a coup.
No. Adisa wouldn’t say that. I think he was slightly misquoted, because
he faced trial like me, and he did not say, during the trial, that he
planned the coup. Being a member of the Armed Forces Ruling Council, he
had his own view, because the view then was that the military should
leave in October, but that did not go down well with some people within
the government. So, should we because of that rope some other people in?
I wouldn’t like to mention their names.
For example, all the soldiers guarding us,
including Adisa and Olanrewaju, were from Abacha. So, how do you plan a
coup when the soldiers guarding you are from the head of state?
It is not done. That was enough to show that it was a phantom coup. And,
in any case, which other coup have we seen that people would be
recording even before the coup was executed? It was obvious that all
those that were planning the coup were there in government, not those
that were suspected.
What grouse did Bamaiyi have against you to have you implicated?
We are all human beings. Everybody has ambition, and anytime you are going up on the ladder, there are people that are envious, very jealous and they are so many, even within your own group. They tend to question why you have what you have and how you became whatever. Those acts were envious, otherwise, I saw someone like Bamaiyi as a good man because I believed he also didn’t want the military to continue. Virtually everybody wore Abacha’s badge then but he didn’t wear it. I also refused to wear it and that was how he deceived me. But I believe that God used him the way he wanted. I choose to leave everybody with their conscience. I thank God for where I am today.
You would have been close to General Abacha, being his deputy. At what point did things fall apart between the two of you?I will not open my mouth to condemn Abacha as a human being. I served him as the deputy and I believe that there is still a lot that could be said creditably about him.
From the video that went viral then, you were seen pleading with him for fellow generals whom you thought were arrested. If you were that close to him, why did he find it difficult to forgive you?No. When it comes to people’s ambition, you have to be careful. We had to allow General Abacha have his ambition. If he felt there was nobody that he could hand over to in Nigeria and that the only solution to our problem was probably himself, he was entitled to that opinion, but it doesn’t mean that opinion would also be acceptable to me. I believed that was probably the beginning of our conflict. The moment he knew that I was not 100 percent with him along that line, I mean his ambition, we started having differences which was showing in the open.
What grouse did Bamaiyi have against you to have you implicated?
We are all human beings. Everybody has ambition, and anytime you are going up on the ladder, there are people that are envious, very jealous and they are so many, even within your own group. They tend to question why you have what you have and how you became whatever. Those acts were envious, otherwise, I saw someone like Bamaiyi as a good man because I believed he also didn’t want the military to continue. Virtually everybody wore Abacha’s badge then but he didn’t wear it. I also refused to wear it and that was how he deceived me. But I believe that God used him the way he wanted. I choose to leave everybody with their conscience. I thank God for where I am today.
You would have been close to General Abacha, being his deputy. At what point did things fall apart between the two of you?I will not open my mouth to condemn Abacha as a human being. I served him as the deputy and I believe that there is still a lot that could be said creditably about him.
From the video that went viral then, you were seen pleading with him for fellow generals whom you thought were arrested. If you were that close to him, why did he find it difficult to forgive you?No. When it comes to people’s ambition, you have to be careful. We had to allow General Abacha have his ambition. If he felt there was nobody that he could hand over to in Nigeria and that the only solution to our problem was probably himself, he was entitled to that opinion, but it doesn’t mean that opinion would also be acceptable to me. I believed that was probably the beginning of our conflict. The moment he knew that I was not 100 percent with him along that line, I mean his ambition, we started having differences which was showing in the open.
The first step he took, for example, was about the late Chief MKO
Abiola’s arrest. When Abiola was arrested and detained, (and I am still
saying that up till today, I didn’t know where he was detained
throughout), the law of detention at that time stated that it was only
the Chief of General Staff who could arrest, detain, sign and agree on
the location where someone should be detained. But that law was changed
overnight and the Police IG was given the full powers, so that cut me
off completely. Anybody reading between the lines would know that the
difference was very clear.
Some said that people like you had to be crawling for AlMustapha even as a General. Was it true?
In my life, I can never crawl before anybody. And nobody can ever make me crawl before him, except God who is my maker. When that video was shown, I was surprised that a lot of people believed it. But I wondered why people were not intelligent enough to query why the video had no sound. Truly, I was pleading with Abacha to release those people that came to him about handing over in October. I was aware of it and I was a party to it. I told him to leave them alone that I was responsible because I thought they were arrested. However, on the day of the trial, they made the mistake of conducting the hearing in the open. They invited the world press to be there. When I went in and moved round, I saw Adisa and Olanrewaju, but I didn’t see Bamaiyi, Magashi and the rest. That was what prompted me and I didn’t care about what would happen anymore. I wondered where Bamaiyi and others were then. It was then that I understood that it was a phantom coup and a real set-up that was organised from the top against me. I was almost killed that night but God saved my life.
You said you didn’t support Abacha’s wish to remain there forever like he wanted, was that the only issue that pitched him against you?Well, I wouldn’t know. Someone once asked if I was sure that Abacha wanted to release Abiola. That how was I sure that I was not actually going against his desire, which could have been the beginning of the problem. But I said I didn’t see any sign that he didn’t want to release Abiola. Even though, when Abiola was arrested, I didn’t know, I was in Enugu. When I got to Abuja, I asked Gen. Abacha and he confirmed it, but I was not privy to where Abiola was detained because the order of detention had been changed. So, the person who brought the detention paper to me did so in error. He didn’t know that the order had been changed.
What made you go against his wish to remain there?
I could not defeat the spirit of my profession. Being in an office that was political was not part of our assignment as soldiers. I didn’t join the army for political reasons and I wouldn’t have supported such idea. Look at what is happening in Egypt now where the Army Chief resigned to contest an election. That was a gentleman’s decision. So, if the election is free, fair and credible and he is elected, the Western world will accept him.
In the midst of those troubles, why didn’t you resign and go?
Haah…. That would have been worse. They would kill me somewhere and just find something to cover it up. You were still there and they did all that they did. The only thing is that they would just support it with law. It was just an unfortunate moment. But, like I said, let’s leave everything to God, but in my heart, I thank God and I still have a space to thank General Abacha, at least for the opportunity he gave me to serve.
You had a close shave with death about three times. Some people would have thought that you probably had juju being an Ijebu man. Was there anything like that?Not at all. My parents were very good Christians. In fact, the church that I attend now in Abule Ijesha was founded by my father. So, when one goes through all these, you become more confident that nothing can happen to you. Otherwise, my saving grace was the 10 minutes lateness to the plane in which I would have been blown up together with those on my entourage. The plane would have been blown up and those people wouldn’t care. About 16 people were to travel with me and everybody would have been killed.
The opposition claimed that the government which you were a part of promised that Abiola would be given justice. What was the commitment?There were divided opinions then. Some felt that Abiola should be given justice; some even said that he should be installed as the president. In fact, that view cut across the military and that was why the military came in to pacify things and to correct all the mistakes and that was the intention of the national conference then. Even the Yoruba wanted to boycott it but for the efforts of the Ooni of Ife who encouraged people to go for the conference because some had come out to say that the conference should be boycotted. Eventually, the findings and the recommendations of the conference became the nucleus of the 1999 constitution which we are still using up till now.
Was it true that Abiola was granted bail?
These are questions that you should be asking the right people. Because up till now, there are two questions that I have also been asking. People have condemned me but I still thank God. The first question is, why did Abiola refuse bail, and he did that in writing and he gave the reasons for his refusal. I don’t want to mention names, but somebody was there. These were the things that almost killed Dr. Onagoruwa because even as an insider, he fought for Abiola to accept bail. Also, Alex Ibru was on the phone for about two hours begging Abiola to accept bail but he didn’t. The Minister of Transport then, Ebenezer Babatope, arranged a plane with a pilot to take Abiola to anywhere he wanted, but he didn’t take the offer.
Some said that people like you had to be crawling for AlMustapha even as a General. Was it true?
In my life, I can never crawl before anybody. And nobody can ever make me crawl before him, except God who is my maker. When that video was shown, I was surprised that a lot of people believed it. But I wondered why people were not intelligent enough to query why the video had no sound. Truly, I was pleading with Abacha to release those people that came to him about handing over in October. I was aware of it and I was a party to it. I told him to leave them alone that I was responsible because I thought they were arrested. However, on the day of the trial, they made the mistake of conducting the hearing in the open. They invited the world press to be there. When I went in and moved round, I saw Adisa and Olanrewaju, but I didn’t see Bamaiyi, Magashi and the rest. That was what prompted me and I didn’t care about what would happen anymore. I wondered where Bamaiyi and others were then. It was then that I understood that it was a phantom coup and a real set-up that was organised from the top against me. I was almost killed that night but God saved my life.
You said you didn’t support Abacha’s wish to remain there forever like he wanted, was that the only issue that pitched him against you?Well, I wouldn’t know. Someone once asked if I was sure that Abacha wanted to release Abiola. That how was I sure that I was not actually going against his desire, which could have been the beginning of the problem. But I said I didn’t see any sign that he didn’t want to release Abiola. Even though, when Abiola was arrested, I didn’t know, I was in Enugu. When I got to Abuja, I asked Gen. Abacha and he confirmed it, but I was not privy to where Abiola was detained because the order of detention had been changed. So, the person who brought the detention paper to me did so in error. He didn’t know that the order had been changed.
What made you go against his wish to remain there?
I could not defeat the spirit of my profession. Being in an office that was political was not part of our assignment as soldiers. I didn’t join the army for political reasons and I wouldn’t have supported such idea. Look at what is happening in Egypt now where the Army Chief resigned to contest an election. That was a gentleman’s decision. So, if the election is free, fair and credible and he is elected, the Western world will accept him.
In the midst of those troubles, why didn’t you resign and go?
Haah…. That would have been worse. They would kill me somewhere and just find something to cover it up. You were still there and they did all that they did. The only thing is that they would just support it with law. It was just an unfortunate moment. But, like I said, let’s leave everything to God, but in my heart, I thank God and I still have a space to thank General Abacha, at least for the opportunity he gave me to serve.
You had a close shave with death about three times. Some people would have thought that you probably had juju being an Ijebu man. Was there anything like that?Not at all. My parents were very good Christians. In fact, the church that I attend now in Abule Ijesha was founded by my father. So, when one goes through all these, you become more confident that nothing can happen to you. Otherwise, my saving grace was the 10 minutes lateness to the plane in which I would have been blown up together with those on my entourage. The plane would have been blown up and those people wouldn’t care. About 16 people were to travel with me and everybody would have been killed.
The opposition claimed that the government which you were a part of promised that Abiola would be given justice. What was the commitment?There were divided opinions then. Some felt that Abiola should be given justice; some even said that he should be installed as the president. In fact, that view cut across the military and that was why the military came in to pacify things and to correct all the mistakes and that was the intention of the national conference then. Even the Yoruba wanted to boycott it but for the efforts of the Ooni of Ife who encouraged people to go for the conference because some had come out to say that the conference should be boycotted. Eventually, the findings and the recommendations of the conference became the nucleus of the 1999 constitution which we are still using up till now.
Was it true that Abiola was granted bail?
These are questions that you should be asking the right people. Because up till now, there are two questions that I have also been asking. People have condemned me but I still thank God. The first question is, why did Abiola refuse bail, and he did that in writing and he gave the reasons for his refusal. I don’t want to mention names, but somebody was there. These were the things that almost killed Dr. Onagoruwa because even as an insider, he fought for Abiola to accept bail. Also, Alex Ibru was on the phone for about two hours begging Abiola to accept bail but he didn’t. The Minister of Transport then, Ebenezer Babatope, arranged a plane with a pilot to take Abiola to anywhere he wanted, but he didn’t take the offer.
An English adage says, he who fights and runs away lives to fight
another day. Look at Abiola’s estate today, all the people who said he
should not take bail, what was their intention? Also, when General
Abacha died, why didn’t these same people, who told Abiola to refuse
bail, demand that until Abiola was released, they would not take part in
any discussion on the transition programme with the government? These
two questions have not yet been answered and I will continue to ask. The
people who did their best suffered more; they were attacked and their
children were killed. I still believe that Alex Ibru died as a result of
that attack.
It was suspected that you had sympathy for NADECO at that time. Is it true?
There were so many allegations. Those of us who were in government were even called more NADECO than those outside, and you can see that even from the degree of hostility that we eventually went through. You would even pity those of us in government more than those who were outside, enjoying their freedom. We had it very tough in the government because the suspicion was that we were all NADECO people. From the experiences of people like Dr. Olu Onagoruwa whose son was even attacked and killed, Alex Ibru’s newspaper was shut for many months, all because of suspicion, but it’s okay. There are so many people also that I wouldn’t want to mention their names, they are too many. Senator Adefuye was accused of being a spy for NADECO but these are all part of history now.
Apart from the bomb blast escape, how exactly did you escape after the death warrant that was signed against you?Well, if any death warrant was signed, I didn’t see it. If you were in an enclosure with people like Sergeant Rogers who were very hostile, you would naturally have thoughts because when you see Rogers, you have indirectly seen death. You don’t see Rogers and smile the following day. Colonel Omenka was not as terrible. We were brought to Kano from Jos for execution. At the end of the day, Abubakar came and there was no execution anymore. So, that was a narrow escape but we give that credit to one Sgt. Bush who became friendly out of the eight soldiers that came with Rogers for the alleged execution.
What was the role of Sgt. Bush?
He was one of Rogers’ men who took us, including Olanrewaju and Adisa from Jos to Kano. When we got to Kano, they hid us inside a jeep, took us to a bungalow and as usual, the rumour started that we were to be executed the following day in Kano. That night, Sgt. Bush went to buy battery for his radio. So, while he was out, he heard on BBC that Abacha had died, so that was when he made up his mind that he was not going to be party to the execution since Abacha had died. When he told Rogers that he was not going to be a part of the execution, he insisted we should be killed. Rogers said they had already been given an instruction which they had to follow. So, the camp was divided into two. Bush and three other men supported him and Rogers and the other men were on the other side too. That was how the camp split into two and nothing happened the following day. By the following morning, Abdulsalam Abubakar had resumed duty as the head of state.
How did you feel when you heard that Abacha died?
We didn’t know on time. We got to know through Sgt. Bush when newspapers came out in the afternoon, he got a copy of the newspaper and slid it to us through the door, so we read it in the paper that Abacha was dead.
What was your reaction at that moment?
Well, at that point, we were confused because we didn’t know who would take over. We didn’t know if the person who would take over would be nice or otherwise, or may even be worse than Abacha. So, there was no jubilation. It was a mixed feeling and we all kept quiet. We once had a positive expectation that didn’t work for us. When the judge of our court, Victor Malu, was appointed, we were jubilating because the judge was a principled man whom we believed would be fair to us, but when we got to court and saw him with Abacha’s badge, then, all the jubilation stopped. We couldn’t sleep in the cell that day because we knew things had changed. For Victor Malu to wear Abacha’s badge, it meant something to us. But like I said, we have to give God the glory. Someone even asked me if I had forgiven them, I said why wouldn’t I, I believe God will forgive them.
You once said that you didn’t regret serving Abacha’s government, but with the kind of looting being reported, how do you feel, or were you hand-in-glove with him in looting?Let us be frank here. I read in the papers that Abacha looted $458m. One should wonder what a man would want to do with that kind of money. When I was Chief of Defence Staff, I worked with him for about three to four years before I became the Chief of General Staff. When I was the deputy, any memo, especially when it had to do with money, would pass through me, and when you write your memo and you talk of thousands, it would be very easy for Abacha to approve. The moment you start talking of millions, the answer would be no. So, when you hear that the man that was so strict, very careful in spending, stole millions in dollars, not even naira, after he died, it’s unbelievable. I mean, how do you spend that kind of money?
Is it that you don’t believe that he stole as much or that he didn’t steal at all?
How could a head of state have that kind of money? Was it through the Ministry of Finance, the Accountant General or the Central Bank? You see, we should talk with evidence and authority. We should be able to substantiate whatever we say with facts, so that it can serve as legacy for generations coming behind to know that these stories are real facts, not imagination.
But, why didn’t Gen. Abdulsalam Abubakar grant you pardon before he left?
Don’t let us go into all these details, because if you do, you would mention names and when you mention names, (hmm…) I know that somebody told Abubakar not to pardon me, promising that he would pardon me when he took over as president, because he too had been pardoned after he had been rusticated to prison. Abubakar nearly believed him but I had to send another message to Abubakar that he shouldn’t believe the man, that if he believed him, we would all be in the prison till eternity. I requested that he should grant us release and that if the man chose to grant us pardon, that would be fine. The most important thing was for us to be out and that was what he did. I thank him for it and I remain grateful for that because if he didn’t grant that release, maybe we would still be in Potiskum prison. Human beings are different. You have some human beings that are just naturally wicked. It may not be their making, may be that was the way God made them. So, I don’t even hold any grudge against anybody.
Even against Obasanjo?
You are the one mentioning Obasanjo (Laughs…) Leave people to their own conscience and live your life.
With all that happened, do you regret joining the military?
Never. Nothing can make me regret joining a profession that has always been very dear to my heart. There is no profession, no matter how simple, that does not have some elements of risk. Anything can happen in any profession but I thank God everything worked out fine. As human beings, we all have our moments of trouble. So, I thank God I am alive to clock 70. Everytime I sleep and wake up, as a good Christian, the first thing to do is to thank God.
You later studied law, was it an ambition that you hid under the military to accomplish?
Yes. Also because I had the opportunity and I had the entry requirements. I had already graduated from the NDA. I was qualified to read law, so I applied to the University of Nigeria, Nsukka, but I later transferred to Ahmadu Bello University. I applied to the Nigerian Law School and I was called to the bar in 1992 as a solicitor of the Supreme Court of Nigeria.
You must have had godfathers to rise so fast in the Army?
You are using the wrong words. You cannot have godfathers in the army. In the military, there is nothing you can get without struggling and working hard for it. Sixty of us entered the Nigeria Defence Academy, and when I was promoted to be a lieutenant general, we were only five. So you see, there is nothing like godfather and nothing is hidden.We all knew that military regime was not a permanent institution. It was just to correct one or two things and leave. No other form of government can compare with civilian administration.
How are you enjoying your retirement?
I’m enjoying it because I don’t allow anything to bother me. I always thank God because I went through all the trials, travails and God saved me, but the real one that encouraged me was the day they were unable to bomb my plane. I was to go to Makurdi and I was 10 minutes late and, they were trying to re-prime the bomb when it exploded and killed the two men who were to carry out the assignment. They had the same surname: Ishmaila. From that point, I believed that, I am, by the Grace of God, beyond human destruction. You can imagine how 10 minutes saved my life.
As a Christian and church leader, why did you marry two wives?
The issue of wives differs from one denomination to another. You have a denomination where you will not even marry at all, so, if anybody talks about two wives and you have a wife, why don’t you even take an example from the Catholic and don’t marry at all? The Bible says that those of you who want to be Canons, take unto yourselves a wife. In other words, those who want to be Canons and Bishops should take one wife. When Jesus was asked about a woman who married seven brothers from the same family, he said there is nothing like marriage when we get to heaven. This issue of marriage ends here, so the question about wives is the decision of individuals as long as one’s heart is pure. And Jesus said it too, that Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
It was suspected that you had sympathy for NADECO at that time. Is it true?
There were so many allegations. Those of us who were in government were even called more NADECO than those outside, and you can see that even from the degree of hostility that we eventually went through. You would even pity those of us in government more than those who were outside, enjoying their freedom. We had it very tough in the government because the suspicion was that we were all NADECO people. From the experiences of people like Dr. Olu Onagoruwa whose son was even attacked and killed, Alex Ibru’s newspaper was shut for many months, all because of suspicion, but it’s okay. There are so many people also that I wouldn’t want to mention their names, they are too many. Senator Adefuye was accused of being a spy for NADECO but these are all part of history now.
Apart from the bomb blast escape, how exactly did you escape after the death warrant that was signed against you?Well, if any death warrant was signed, I didn’t see it. If you were in an enclosure with people like Sergeant Rogers who were very hostile, you would naturally have thoughts because when you see Rogers, you have indirectly seen death. You don’t see Rogers and smile the following day. Colonel Omenka was not as terrible. We were brought to Kano from Jos for execution. At the end of the day, Abubakar came and there was no execution anymore. So, that was a narrow escape but we give that credit to one Sgt. Bush who became friendly out of the eight soldiers that came with Rogers for the alleged execution.
What was the role of Sgt. Bush?
He was one of Rogers’ men who took us, including Olanrewaju and Adisa from Jos to Kano. When we got to Kano, they hid us inside a jeep, took us to a bungalow and as usual, the rumour started that we were to be executed the following day in Kano. That night, Sgt. Bush went to buy battery for his radio. So, while he was out, he heard on BBC that Abacha had died, so that was when he made up his mind that he was not going to be party to the execution since Abacha had died. When he told Rogers that he was not going to be a part of the execution, he insisted we should be killed. Rogers said they had already been given an instruction which they had to follow. So, the camp was divided into two. Bush and three other men supported him and Rogers and the other men were on the other side too. That was how the camp split into two and nothing happened the following day. By the following morning, Abdulsalam Abubakar had resumed duty as the head of state.
How did you feel when you heard that Abacha died?
We didn’t know on time. We got to know through Sgt. Bush when newspapers came out in the afternoon, he got a copy of the newspaper and slid it to us through the door, so we read it in the paper that Abacha was dead.
What was your reaction at that moment?
Well, at that point, we were confused because we didn’t know who would take over. We didn’t know if the person who would take over would be nice or otherwise, or may even be worse than Abacha. So, there was no jubilation. It was a mixed feeling and we all kept quiet. We once had a positive expectation that didn’t work for us. When the judge of our court, Victor Malu, was appointed, we were jubilating because the judge was a principled man whom we believed would be fair to us, but when we got to court and saw him with Abacha’s badge, then, all the jubilation stopped. We couldn’t sleep in the cell that day because we knew things had changed. For Victor Malu to wear Abacha’s badge, it meant something to us. But like I said, we have to give God the glory. Someone even asked me if I had forgiven them, I said why wouldn’t I, I believe God will forgive them.
You once said that you didn’t regret serving Abacha’s government, but with the kind of looting being reported, how do you feel, or were you hand-in-glove with him in looting?Let us be frank here. I read in the papers that Abacha looted $458m. One should wonder what a man would want to do with that kind of money. When I was Chief of Defence Staff, I worked with him for about three to four years before I became the Chief of General Staff. When I was the deputy, any memo, especially when it had to do with money, would pass through me, and when you write your memo and you talk of thousands, it would be very easy for Abacha to approve. The moment you start talking of millions, the answer would be no. So, when you hear that the man that was so strict, very careful in spending, stole millions in dollars, not even naira, after he died, it’s unbelievable. I mean, how do you spend that kind of money?
Is it that you don’t believe that he stole as much or that he didn’t steal at all?
How could a head of state have that kind of money? Was it through the Ministry of Finance, the Accountant General or the Central Bank? You see, we should talk with evidence and authority. We should be able to substantiate whatever we say with facts, so that it can serve as legacy for generations coming behind to know that these stories are real facts, not imagination.
But, why didn’t Gen. Abdulsalam Abubakar grant you pardon before he left?
Don’t let us go into all these details, because if you do, you would mention names and when you mention names, (hmm…) I know that somebody told Abubakar not to pardon me, promising that he would pardon me when he took over as president, because he too had been pardoned after he had been rusticated to prison. Abubakar nearly believed him but I had to send another message to Abubakar that he shouldn’t believe the man, that if he believed him, we would all be in the prison till eternity. I requested that he should grant us release and that if the man chose to grant us pardon, that would be fine. The most important thing was for us to be out and that was what he did. I thank him for it and I remain grateful for that because if he didn’t grant that release, maybe we would still be in Potiskum prison. Human beings are different. You have some human beings that are just naturally wicked. It may not be their making, may be that was the way God made them. So, I don’t even hold any grudge against anybody.
Even against Obasanjo?
You are the one mentioning Obasanjo (Laughs…) Leave people to their own conscience and live your life.
With all that happened, do you regret joining the military?
Never. Nothing can make me regret joining a profession that has always been very dear to my heart. There is no profession, no matter how simple, that does not have some elements of risk. Anything can happen in any profession but I thank God everything worked out fine. As human beings, we all have our moments of trouble. So, I thank God I am alive to clock 70. Everytime I sleep and wake up, as a good Christian, the first thing to do is to thank God.
You later studied law, was it an ambition that you hid under the military to accomplish?
Yes. Also because I had the opportunity and I had the entry requirements. I had already graduated from the NDA. I was qualified to read law, so I applied to the University of Nigeria, Nsukka, but I later transferred to Ahmadu Bello University. I applied to the Nigerian Law School and I was called to the bar in 1992 as a solicitor of the Supreme Court of Nigeria.
You must have had godfathers to rise so fast in the Army?
You are using the wrong words. You cannot have godfathers in the army. In the military, there is nothing you can get without struggling and working hard for it. Sixty of us entered the Nigeria Defence Academy, and when I was promoted to be a lieutenant general, we were only five. So you see, there is nothing like godfather and nothing is hidden.We all knew that military regime was not a permanent institution. It was just to correct one or two things and leave. No other form of government can compare with civilian administration.
How are you enjoying your retirement?
I’m enjoying it because I don’t allow anything to bother me. I always thank God because I went through all the trials, travails and God saved me, but the real one that encouraged me was the day they were unable to bomb my plane. I was to go to Makurdi and I was 10 minutes late and, they were trying to re-prime the bomb when it exploded and killed the two men who were to carry out the assignment. They had the same surname: Ishmaila. From that point, I believed that, I am, by the Grace of God, beyond human destruction. You can imagine how 10 minutes saved my life.
As a Christian and church leader, why did you marry two wives?
The issue of wives differs from one denomination to another. You have a denomination where you will not even marry at all, so, if anybody talks about two wives and you have a wife, why don’t you even take an example from the Catholic and don’t marry at all? The Bible says that those of you who want to be Canons, take unto yourselves a wife. In other words, those who want to be Canons and Bishops should take one wife. When Jesus was asked about a woman who married seven brothers from the same family, he said there is nothing like marriage when we get to heaven. This issue of marriage ends here, so the question about wives is the decision of individuals as long as one’s heart is pure. And Jesus said it too, that Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
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